FEATURE:
Charted Territory: Brothers Inarm
IN THIS PHOTO: Professor Hannah Fry’s podcast, Uncharted, is enormously successful and must-listen, yet she is one of few women whose podcasts are charting high and among the most listened-to, leading to a question around a new rise in popularity male-focused/voiced options/PHOTO CREDIT: Charlie Clift for The Independent
Diversifying the Podcast Market and Highlighting Amazing Women
_________
AN article was published recently…
IN THIS PHOTO: Comedians James Acaster and Ed Gamble host the hugely popular podcast, Off Menu/PHOTO CREDIT: Paul Gilbey
that raised an interesting point regarding the most popular podcasts. A market that is expanding by the day, you can pretty much find s podcast for anything! Not to say that the podcast market is dominated by men but, when it comes to the most heard and discussed, it seems that male-driven/focused ones are on top. The ‘bro’ podcast. Either podcasters who have quite a laddish or bro mentality, or two men podcasting together who are friends. There is nothing wrong with that…though there does seem to be this proliferation at the moment. I love Fearne Cottom’s Happy Place Podcast and Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware. There are plenty of great podcasts made by or for women. Yet, that being said, there is a resurgence of and seeming reliance on those with a distinct energy and dynamic. I know this is a bit music-adjacent, though it does also apply to music podcasts. I will explore that side a bit more. First, Zoe Williams wrote for The Guardian and asked what it is with all the bro podcasts we are seeing celebrated and topping listening charts:
“I went to an event last week, Is Audio the Future?, which left me full of enthusiasm for podcasts as this pure, organic, guerrilla space, which nobody had yet figured out how to gatekeep and thereby homogenise. Chris Sweeney described how his podcast, Homo Sapiens, originally co-hosted with Will Young, came about in 2018: he was an avid fan of Woman’s Hour and thought, “Wouldn’t it be great to have an LGBT Woman’s Hour?” They started with no more equipment than an iPhone. Holly Cook, head of product at the Economist, described readers having a much richer relationship with the content when they became listeners, more intimate and proprietorial. It reminded me of publishing, in the old days, when there were low barriers to entry, a thousand flowers could bloom and not everyone in the business was in an unengaging steeplechase for the next Hogwarts.
IN THIS PHOTO: Joe Rogan, left, host of the U.K.’s most popular podcast/PHOTO CREDIT: SYFY/NBCU Photo Bank/NBCUniversal/Getty Images
But actually, that would have been publishing in the 17th century. A much better analogy for podcasts as they are now, or as I thought they were, would be the early days of the internet, without behemoths, advertisers or algorithms, before users were funnelled in one of four directions (violent misogynists, conspiracists and white-supremacists; mild lefties; consumers; people who like cats).
This week, the list dropped of the UK’s best-loved podcasts, telling a different story to the one I was telling myself. The top five are, in descending order, Joe Rogan; Steven Bartlett’s Diary of a CEO, in which he counsels the layperson on how to become more like him; Off Menu with Ed Gamble and James Acaster; Sh**ged Married Annoyed, a kind of unfiltered(ish) account of real-life marriage, with Chris and Rosie Ramsey; and Peter Crouch’s podcast. I have a really low tolerance for bros chatting, unless they’re deliberately trying to be funny, so there is lots in the top 25 I cannot comment on, because to heap on the derision I believe them to deserve, I’d first have to listen.
Joe Rogan I have listened to, mainly to bottom out whether or not his reputation as the soothing face of conspiracy theories and other problematic views was deserved. Between the anti-vaxxing and his remark in February that “the idea that Jewish people are not into money is ridiculous”, it probably is, but I couldn’t possibly adjudicate because this is just more bros, chatting.
Across the piece, successful podcasts are funnelling into a handful of distinct streams: bros chatting, sometimes “inspirationally”; funny bros, being funny, and fair play, many of them are; facts, trivia and miscellany presented in a cute way (No Such Thing As a Fish, The Infinite Monkey Cage). Women are allowed, but only if they’re talking about their children or relationships, preferably with their husbands or children (besides Sh**ged …, there’s NewlyWeds, Parenting Hell, Saving Grace). The honourable exception is Hannah Fry, who gets to talk about maths and still be female”.
Maybe it is just a shift in tastes. Perhaps there is a particular energy and chemistry in particular podcasts that are appealing. Whilst I don’t agree that podcasts should be for one particular demographic or gender, it does seem that the most popular podcasts at the moment are more aimed at men. Of course, there are podcasts by women for women that are worth checking out. There was an issue last year where we heard of male podcast hosts and guests called out because of their sexism. It is not especially a recent problem. Whilst there are scores of women making incredible podcasts, how many are we seeing riding high in the charts?! I am going to come to music before. To defend men (sort of), there is a diverse array of podcasts that go beyond ‘bro-dom’ and celebrate blokes being friends. Whether it is a food podcast, one about sports, or even a music one, it can get a bit much!
IN THIS PHOTO: Broadcasters, D.J.s and authors, Nick Grimshaw and Annie Macmanus, have just launched their new podcast, Sidetracked, on BBC Sounds/PHOTO CREDIT: BBC/Stephanie Sian Smith/PA
I am keen to explore this in a musical contest. Whether it is on Apple, Spotify - another well-known streaming platform - or BBC Sounds, there is this extraordinary amount of choice. BBC Sounds has a load of podcasts you can listen to. One that is mixed-gender and take that mates-chatting-formular that seems to be male-heavy and turns things around is Sidetracked with Annie and Nick. Presented by former Radio 1 stablemates Annie Macmanus and Nick Grimshaw, let’s hope their new series heralds in a lot more podcasts where it is not solely two men talking. In the same way you do not see many radio duos of all-women, the same is true of podcasts! Female friendships and relationships being explored and spotlighted through amazing series. Before going on, I found an article from last year that asked about the male-dominated market – and some advice for women getting into podcasting:
“Where Are All the Women Podcasters In theCharts?
It would be wrong to say there are no success stories for women podcasters in the charts. For example, Elizabeth Day’s ‘How to Fail’ and Vogue Williams’ ‘My Therapist Ghosted Me’ are consistently in the top 20. But the problem is, there’s just not enough.
Data on the gender split of podcast creators is pretty tough to get your hands on. But in one report from Sounds Profitable, just 29% of podcast creators in the US identified as women compared with 69% of men. 2% of those surveyed identified as non-binary.
Outside of this small study, there’s a real lack of solid data. This makes it hard to understand why women are so underrepresented in the podcast charts.
One report says the lack of data makes it “difficult to say if women’s underrepresentation on Apple’s top 100 podcasts is because women are not hosting as many podcasts or because they are not receiving recognition for their podcasts”.
The same report highlights some potential obstacles that could be preventing women from creating more podcasts. For example, there are fewer women in tech and are less likely to have experience with podcast recording and editing software because technology is a space dominated by men.
If podcasts are anything like books, there could also be fewer women in the charts simply because men don’t listen to podcasts by women as much as they listen to content by men.
It’s likely there’s a whole combination of factors keeping women out of the podcast charts. But the good news is, that there are some inspirational women who are on a mission to do something about it.
3 Women Making Waves in Podcasting
There are a lot of women podcasters and female-inspired podcast networks championing females in the field right now. After tuning into the International Women’s Podcast Festival this year, here are my top 3 to watch.
1. Imriel Morgan
Imriel Morgan is the CEO of Content is Queen and one of the founders of the International Women’s Podcast Festival.
Content is Queen is a London-based podcasting agency and community that seeks to amplify minority voices in podcasting.
The event was created to celebrate women who have been building up the industry but aren’t being recognised.
“There are still a number of hurdles for different people to jump through. But I think women can be at the forefront of the podcasting industry and should be. We are consuming, we are creating, and we are creating for audiences that are largely under-served,” said Imriel.
“So we are the ones creating at this mass rate but we aren’t necessarily benefiting financially or with the credibility, popularity or even the job prospects. I think there are a lot of things we need to address.”
IN THIS PHOTO: Imriel Morgan
2. Kim Fox
Also known as ‘The Podcast Professor’, Kim Fox is a leading academic who produces, teaches and conducts academic research in podcasting. She’s also a journalism professor with The American University in Cairo.
Fox recognises that progress in the field is almost entirely down to women championing other women podcasters:
“We are finding that more women are aligning up with other women and these opportunities […] are extremely valuable.”
“The way we share information, the way we cheer for each other, you can guarantee there aren’t going to be any ‘manels’ [all-male panels]. Sometimes, we hear when these conferences take place that they couldn’t find any women to talk about this topic. That’s not true.”
3. Bianca Foley
Bianca Foley is one half of the very successful, all-female-driven, Sustainably Influenced podcast.
Along with co-host Charlotte Williams, the duo’s show focuses on eco-fashion. The show was born out of a chat between friends about the frustration of packaging.
Despite the challenges of launching just before the pandemic hit in 2020, the show has gone from strength to strength. It’s now in its sixth season.
Content creator Bianca said: “I wanted to do a podcast for ages, but I didn’t have the confidence to just start it and that’s why I was so glad that Charlotte just said, we are going to do this, let’s just do it, let’s just try.”
IN THIS PHOTO: Bianca Foley
Best Advice From Women Podcasters? Just Do It
The advice to women podcasters from Content is Queen’s Imriel Morgan is, if you’re thinking of starting a podcast, stop thinking.
“My advice is just to start,” she said. “I’m not saying you have to press publish, I’m not saying you have to distribute it to the world, even though that’s far less scary than you think it is, but just start the process.
“We want to see those stories, and we want to hear what you’ve got to say. It does matter, and it is valid.”
If this has inspired you to start your own women-led podcast, this guide on how to start a podcast has everything you need to know.
And if all this has got you interested in checking out another great women-led podcasting conference, She Podcasts Live 2023 will take place June 19-22 in Washington DC”.
Even the music podcast market features a lot of male-helmed series. We have artists like Dua Lipa and her At Your Service podcast. In music, there is ample opportunity to platform women. So many great artists who could pair together. I would love to hear podcasts from women in production. Incredible female artists talking about their careers. Series exploring iconic women in music and modern-day queens! I think there is something incredibly captivating and fascinating hearing two women on a podcast. The dynamic is a little different. I think the conversation is usually broader and more interesting. Their personalities richer and broader! I would love to hear music interview podcasts or thematic/topical music podcasts made by women. You can extend this to beyond the world of music. Think about film criticism. Again, there are some great film podcasts made by women. There are alluring and dynamite partnerships waiting to be cemented. Rhianna Dhillon and Anna Bogutskaya have presented Kermode and Mayo’s Take. They are brilliant together. I think they could present a weekly film podcast and it would ride high in the charts. It is all very well have these fantasy line-ups and wish-lists. There is the incredible female talent out there! That article from The Guardian makes a point. In some ways, the podcast charts are regressive. Women on podcasts with or talking about their husbands are more worthy or visible than ones where women are at the forefront and independent. Hannah Fry being an example (of the latter) with her extraordinary Uncharted. There does seem to be that preference for male voices. Men are harsher critics too. Even if there are terrific podcasts made by women, the most recognisable and memorable ones, it appears, are from men.
IN THIS PHOTO: Film critics broadcasters and writers, Rhianna Dhillon and Anna Bogutskaya/PHOTO CREDIT: Kermode and Mayo’s Take
Even five years ago, the topic of gender divides in podcast was raised by Forbes. Whilst it is a way of fighting against the patriarchy, (podcasts) also provide a space where women can be heard and talk about issues important to them! If bro-led podcasts about banter and mates shooting the breeze are popular because of their casual nature and that healthy male energy, there are plenty of toxic and problematic ones that are getting a big audience share. Things will change. The podcast market is definitely one that could be enriched if female voices are supported and amplified:
“As more women infiltrate the male-dominated world of podcasting, they’re inspiring and showing the way for other female hosts. And to those women who are thinking of starting a show of their own, don’t let the popularity contest deter you. Brushing off podcast rankings, Shannon and Thompson say, “iTunes algorithms are a mystery to everyone—that top 100 could be based on just about anything. So we try to not let it get our panties in a bunch; we just keep on going, doing our thing. But we're definitely dreaming of a more equal world where we don't even have to go there, and now is the time for women to step up, use their voices, share their stories, and support each other by subscribing and leaving ratings and reviews.”
“We live in a society that often tells women our voices and our stories don’t matter. I really internalized this and regrettably, I spent a big portion of my life thinking that I didn’t have anything valuable to add to the conversation,” says Todd. “From writers, to filmmakers, to podcasters, we need more women telling our stories. I can’t tell you how many times podcast networks or advertisers have told me they wish there were more women led shows out there. It’s dire. If you’re a woman who has something to say, don’t spend any time worrying that what you have to say isn’t valuable. We need your voice”.
IN THIS PHOTO: Daisy May Cooper hosts Educating Daisy/PHOTO CREDIT: Antonio Olmos/The Observer
Being in the music industry, I know of great podcasts made by women here. So many more just begging to be made! Across all industries, sectors and interests, it is vital that there is greater balance. Of course, you can’t dictate listener habits and force tastes onto people. Even so, podcast platforms in general can do more to balance things are promote worthy and interesting female voices. Mixed-gender podcasts that break away from the matey and blokey surge. Not that I have anything against men in podcasts though, with any scene, if there is too much of that it gets homogenised, boring and lacks variation! Articles like this from earlier in the year highlight some brilliant women making incredible podcast. Even Ryan Clark’s excellent Rylan: How to Be a Man is a much-needed, timely and refreshing antidote to the somewhat unfiltered and testosterone-filled podcasts that many gravitate towards. Seeing more women scaling the top podcasts charts in 2024 would be a hugely pleasant, inspiring, important and progressive…
STEP forward.